Airline Hiring Just Changed | What Pilots Need To Know

Pilots know how tough the hiring process is, and many are just one major event away from having to start it all over again. Spirit Airlines is going out of business.

You can prepare all you can, but at the end of the day, you have no control over what's going to happen.

The good news is airline hiring is picking back up.

They have picked up like significantly, I would say, in the last year.

But they are just hiring anyone. You have to know how to convince them that you're right for the job.

You know yourself best. You better be able to talk about yourself because the next person is going to be able to talk about themselves.

You need to learn what traps to avoid. They can start early during your flight training.

It will come back to your check ride failures. It will come back to stage checks. You'll have to address it moving forward no matter where you go.

And continue through to your interview process.

You have no clue who is looking at you. Hiring people are walking around in plain clothes at conferences. Even being flown places for interviews. They'll call the hotel. How did you leave the room? That stuff all compounds, and people don't realize that.

Carolyn runs pilotresumes.com and is back to share her decade plus of recruiting knowledge in hopes of helping pilots around the world make sense of airline hiring.

There is a lot of gate kept information that people will never know about. Why someone gets in, why someone doesn't get in.

My name is Mitchell. This is the AirPod. And now let's hear more from Carolyn. We are in Dallas, Texas, right now, uh for TPNX. So I think we talked about it a little on the last one. I think so. Can you just describe a little what TPNX is?

Yeah. So TPNX was the culmination of the pilot network wanting to get everyone together in one space. It's a networking event. That's how we describe it. It's not a hiring event per se, even though people do get hired there. Um and it's pilots from every industry, every walk of life. There's military, there's civilian, there's low-time pilots that are not even close to being able to be hired, um, retiring captains, like everyone in between. And everyone just comes together and meets with amazing vendors and has incredible socials and just gets to know people and walk around and swap war stories. Is that politically correct? Um, but it's just a bunch of like-minded people in the same room, and it's really fun every year. And you got a taste of it yesterday.

Yeah, I did. I was amazed how packed it was for one. I you know, it's the room was decent size, but there's still wall-to-wall.

Like I usually I like to describe it. Adam, um, our co-founder read an article of mine on the um pilot network podcast, and I wrote about how it was a culmination of like a family reunion and a wedding, but with good food. And it's so funny because you'll run into people and you'll hear people talking to other people, and they're like, I haven't seen this guy since, you know, like I was in training or wherever. We both had the same fight instructor, and and they just connect, and and sometimes you don't recognize people because it's been 15 years since you've seen them.

Sure.

Um, but yeah, it's just fun. Like you just see all the people that you like, and then you get to meet all kinds of new people that you just automatically like as well. Um, and it's it's a really fun event. Yeah, like they they maximize everyone's time, I think, and effort outgoing. And it's always fun talking to people and like hearing where they're from. Um, so yeah, it's good. It it's really fun. Yeah. I'm glad that you got a taste of that too.

The representation from the vendors, too. I was pretty surprised. Like I expected American Southwest, Southwest, especially here.

Yeah.

Um, but I saw Wizair, which is like a UK airline. Yeah, was not expecting that.

Yeah, yeah. They came all the way over. I was talking with them um today, and they came over because they have a visa specifically for um certain people that like have UK ancestry and they can go work over there super kind of easily, kind of easily. Crazy. Um, yeah, and obviously the European um job market is different than here, and the qualifications are different than here. Um, so I think people were really surprised by that, but they also were touring around having barbecue and doing all the things. So yeah, you I think um what's unique about it too is that you find like companies you've never heard of and like they come out and they want to talk to people too. So it's not just the big well-known organizations. There's there's something for everyone, which is why spouses come and you know, like you get to learn about different companies and vendors, and everyone just talks with everyone and mingles and has something in common with someone else.

So can you talk a little? You said that TPNX is not like a hiring event. What's happening at those hiring events that's not happening at TPNX, and maybe vice versa?

I think there's probably what you probably know is it's like it it feels packed like wall-to-wall people, but they're not all in blue suits with brown shoes and brown belts, and everyone's standing around like begging for an opportunity to talk to a recruiter. And here it's very casual. Like we tell people all the time that roll up in suits and ties, we're like, take take off the tie. Like you it we're casual here. Like we want, um, Adam and Matt, um, the founders of TPN were very adamant of being they wanted it to be like a squadron hangout, you know, very casual. Like you're truly getting to know people on an individual basis. Like you don't have to stand around uncomfortable waiting. And I think that's probably the difference is that you do get a lot of FaceTime with recruiters. Like, I've there's been plenty of people who have grabbed a recruiter on the conference floor, you know, right before lunch, just alone been like, Can you look at like why am I not getting a call?

Yeah.

You know, like what is happening? And they've been able to get a job ultimately out of that. So I think it's definitely more focused on the networking aspect as well as the human connection. Um, whereas I think some of the bigger conferences that gets lost where you've got 15 seconds to like hand your resume over, do your elevator pitch, and then hope for the best. Whereas they can kind of dig deeper at TPNX and really kind of like know who you are as a person. So a lot more of like the community aspect versus like, I'm just here, please like look at me. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it feels better on both sides too. Obviously, the pilot side, you feel like you have that personal conversation, but the recruiters, I mean, the the big hiring events, they talk to, I don't know, four or five, six hundred people in a day. Yeah. Or an hour. Yeah. How are you ever gonna remember who you talked to or what the conversation was about or any of that? So yeah, that was that was surprising to see, but it was yeah, like a very good feeling to be there.

Yeah, like you feel almost like, you know, I I joke, like I said, about the family reunion and the wedding, but it is it is like a a get together. Like even for me, like with the volunteers, you look forward to talking to those people, or if someone's not coming, you're like you're you're disappointed. You're like, oh, but we're gonna we're gonna hang out, you know, like we're gonna get to know each other and you make a lot of friends that way. Even for me, like you you make a lot of friends with recruiters or people that you would never expect to like have a conversation with, like all of a sudden you're having a conversation or you're being introduced to someone.

Yeah.

So I think that I think it's nice to be on a little bit of a smaller scale and be able to do all of that.

Some shakeups in the industry recently. Uh I want to dig into that a little bit in regards to how it affects everybody. So Spirit Airlines last week announced that they're done. Yeah. All their pilots are now 2.16 a.m. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and those guys, first off, shout out to those guys because what a what a time to have.

They are amazing. We yeah, I've I've talked to a lot of spirit pilots the last couple of days, and they all have um very I want to say like almost like they're very t like tenacious. You know, they're they are still very positive, but a lot of them knew the writing was almost on the wall, you know, even though it was an up and down, it was a it was a roller coaster, like the last couple years. And um the average time that the spirit pilots had been with the company was about eight or nine years. I heard four years, seven years, fifteen years, like there was everyone in between, but I was like, why did you why? And they're like, We stuck it out. We stuck it out to the end. I was like, Yeah, I think that speaks a lot to them.

Yeah.

You know, like they're very loyal.

Because it wasn't I mean, an airline shutting down, especially one of that size, is a significant event, but it's not like it was super surprising. Yeah. They're in their third bankruptcy or you know, it's been the up and down.

Yeah. So I think um I think they knew that it like they had hope, right? They held out hope. And there there were stories floating around of people who had left and then come back. And there there's a lot of really sad stories, but they they all still had a smile on their face and are like, well, onwards and upwards, and you know, on to the next thing. That's all we can do. And I think it really speaks to who they are as people, like every single one of them. I almost could pinpoint the spirit pilots, not only because we gave them name badges that said that, but just their mannerisms and their professionalism and like their candor and like the the conversation that you had with them. They were like, you're just you're a stand-up, like you're just a stand-up individual, all of them.

I think it speaks to the industry too and how much they've done to lift those people up. Um, I saw a lot of different groups yesterday that were offering either for your discounted assistance, whether it's interview prep or any of that. Uh, one of the um presentations I sat in on, they were asking in the room who's a spirit pilot. I think there's only one in the room at that time, but they gave them a free interview prep consultation. So that was cool to see. Um, that process from a spirit pilot's perspective, obviously very unusual to be a pilot at an airline that just goes belly up in the middle of the night. How do they go through trying to find another place to fly?

Man, it's hard. I think it it's funny. I was talking to one of our the spirit pilots today, and they were like, How am I? They had heard about coming to the conference. They're like, how am I even getting gonna get there? Like, I don't have privileges. And they literally were walking up to other airlines and being like, please, like, have mercy, have mercy. And like they made it happen. So I think a lot of that has been there's a lot of support in the industry as a whole, I think, for pilots. Like pilots always want to help pilots, whether you know someone or you know something, like you always want to pass that knowledge on and the info. And so I think there has been a lot of um uplifting. I saw a lot of people being like, you've got to come meet this person, and extending like a handshake and being like, We're gonna help you, we're gonna do whatever we can because it it sucks, especially for these guys that thought they were going to retire there or whatever the case was. Um, I think a lot of them, because some of them were expecting it, right? They were hoping that it wasn't gonna happen, but a lot of them have been preparing probably in advance, at least mentally. Um, and so some of it will just be like dusting off the old logbook and making sure everything is up to date and going through things, but uh things have changed since a lot of them were hired like drastically. And so I think that will be kind of hard for them maybe navigating, but coming coming to the conferences and meeting people and getting back in there, it was it was refreshing to see people like, no, like I'm gonna introduce you to so and so, or there's opportunities flo flowing around. So Yeah.

I I have some questions later on that we'll get to around you know long time super experienced people and their interview processes. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like you said, there's people that have been there probably 15, 20 years. Yeah. That's the last time they interviewed. Yeah. Um, you know, if there's a new pilot coming in, like still sucks for them. But if you're you've only been there a couple years, like you still have that rhythm down a little bit.

Yeah.

Um and then from the perspective of people further down the line in the industry, maybe they're at a regional, maybe they uh don't even have an airline job yet. We just dump 2,000 pilots into the job market.

Yeah.

What does that look like for them? I always tell people Before we get into that, I have a goal of reaching a thousand subscribers on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify. So if you're here for the first time and you haven't subscribed yet, please consider it. Now back to Carolyn.

Like it's always worst case scenario, right? You're like, okay, well, that's how many there is worst case, but you don't take into account the people that maybe just quit or retire, or you know, like there's still a lot of that will that will happen where maybe some people take a break or they leave the industry entirely. Like we don't really know the answers of like the numbers. I think there's always going to be competition. I obviously they're more qualified than like some of the lower time pilots that we have looking to break in, but um at the same time, like companies are still hiring like crazy, like at the majors, like legacy, like they're behind on hiring from the previous years. So I don't know, like competition-wise, it's it's hard to say like where that will stack. Like, will it slow things down? Like, I mean, because a company's not just gonna hire someone just because they're who they are, sure, right? Like, there still is especially when you kind of get into the nitty-gritty of you know, maybe in like 135 world and stuff, they're not gonna just hire someone just because they're like most qualified on paper, they still have other things because it's like, well, you could just leave to go somewhere else. Yeah.

So it's hard though if you have somebody that's you know a 320 type rated and you fly a 320s, yeah. You don't really have that expense of bringing that person on board.

Yeah, yeah.

Um the low-time pilot outlook we talked a little about last year and you or in the last episode, and you just mentioned that um there's still a lot of hiring going on. Yeah. Now, when we compare it and people still love to compare it to 21, 22, 23, which anomaly, folks. Like we're not going back there. Um, but there is a lot of hiring going on in all the different airlines at this point. I actually heard yesterday that this is one of the first years that pretty much every major airline's hiring at the same time, which is incredibly rare. Um, what does that outlook look like for the low time guide?

Man, I hope I hope I hope things turn around. Uh for I mean, they have picked up like significantly, I would say, in the last year. Um maybe well, maybe in the last like seven or eight months, like you know, companies maybe like because I mean even Sky West wasn't doing a whole lot that you hear of, and then all of a sudden it was like everyone was getting interviews, everyone was getting CJOs, like things were moving. Um, I hope that things are there's still like so much to happen. There's so much room for everyone. It's just finding those opportunities for the low low-time um pilots and just being competitive, I guess, with with some of the others. It just it it changes things, but it doesn't change things because you still have crazy stories of people like 350 hours getting into the right seat of a jet and being in the right place at the right time. Like those situations still happen, so nothing is slowed down, it's just whether or not people are actually paying attention to that side of things.

Yeah.

So I'm not I wish I had like an answer of like how that would trickle down. And you you see even CFIs being like, I can't find a job anywhere, I've called everywhere, like there's no one hiring, and then it's like I just talked to this CFI, they had five different offers from fight schools, so maybe you're just not looking the right place. Like, I don't know at this point.

Yeah, I I I wonder how much I mean the networking obviously matters a ton. We've talked about that a bunch. And then just your regional location too. Like, are you in a physical place in the country where you can find those types of jobs? Yeah because if you're looking for a right seat in a jet and you're in like I live in Knoxville, there's some private jet activity in Knoxville, but compared to somebody that's in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Miami, yeah, Dallas, like there's a lot of jet seats available.

Yeah, I agree. I think uh the market really kind of dictates too, like and most of the time people are expected to relocate regard like CFIs are asked to relocate on the daily. Like you're almost expected to be able to pick up and go no matter the cost, right? And so I think mindset kind of goes in in hand in hand with it and thinking outside the box because most of the time people are looking at the same job boards, the exact same places that everyone else is looking at. Um, and you really do have to, you have to advocate, advocate for yourself at the end of the day. And regional, I think does depend. Like there are harder markets, like to be a CFI in Arizona, that's where people mostly go. And it it is tougher. Um, but like you go down to Florida and there's just more opportunities, right? Or maybe a one-off like somewhere else. You get an opportunity for knowing someone or being the right place at the right time. But for the most part, you really do have to expand your horizon and look for these opportunities, or or a lot of people have taken jobs within a company of recently, of recent time. Um and they've been prom like who knows if it will happen, but they've been promised like, well, you're more likely to get interviewed now because you're a company employee doing whatever else. Yeah. And maybe we'll bump be able to bump you up, and which is a gamble in itself. But there are there are opportunities like that where people either like look down upon them or don't consider them. And a lot of people have had the upper advantage or upper hand to take those jobs because of that reason.

Yeah. And people not being willing to relocate to like Yeah, a lot of people. Like, I want to be based in Columbus, Ohio. Like okay, if you work for NetJets, that's great. Yeah. Outside of that, where are you gonna go?

Yeah, there I'm and like there are unique situations and people run into, you know, the right people and and it can open doors, but you yeah, I feel bad for the people who are like, I'm stuck here, like I can't go anywhere. And it's like, well, you're you will have a harder time. At the end of the day, you will.

Yeah. I also heard yesterday that FedEx pilots are getting a new contract, and what I I haven't fact checked this, so I probably shouldn't say it, but I heard that they will be the highest paid pilots in the US by f up to$500 a day. Oh my gosh. So very significant. Good on those guys, too. Like that's a great place to be right now. What was mentioned is a lot of pilots are gonna be taking their pension once the new contract clears, and there's potentially a lot of shuffling that's gonna happen. So um, maybe less so about the effects on the market, but from your perspective, if somebody says, hey, like FedEx is looking pretty good right now, and I want to go to a cargo carrier versus a legacy, what does that process look like in their application and their uh interviewing and all that stuff?

I don't know if anything really changes per se. Um there's a yeah. There I don't know. I'm trying to like figure out the best way to answer this, but I don't think anything necessarily changes because the processes mostly are still the same to an extent, right? There's other things that get involved, like when you start looking at like going to the majors and everything. But um, I feel like cargo is honestly it's kind of like this little hidden gem, even for low-time pilots. There's a lot of cargo jobs out there that aren't advertised. And it's crappy flying, right? Like it's night, it's a lot of single pilot ops, like it that's just what it is. And so um, there's been a lot of times where people can at least build multi-time or you know, like doing that and then like kind of break into the world, but it's still the same expectations. Like the um, like the cargo world is is an interesting world in itself, and a lot of the captains retiring out of cargo have a hard time going into like breaking into other spots.

Why do you think that is?

Because they talk to boxes and not people.

True.

That's a drop quote from one of them.

Um they just my buddy just got on with Frontier and he had to do uh uh an announcement, like a PA announcement in his interview.

In his interview?

Yeah, it is interview, yeah. Oh my gosh. And it's like, okay, if you're 30 years at FedEx, like you probably aren't you haven't practiced that very much.

Yeah, like they really have to look for those customer service modes. I mean, because they're they are interacting with people on a daily basis. And um, I actually was talking to um someone yesterday having a conversation about the cargo aspect, and it's like, well, you know, like we still have to like make sure everything is okay and like deal with the customers cargo who is who we're loading, so like they can think of those customer service stories. It's just in a different perspective. But yeah, cargo is like a different world in itself, it's very interesting.

Going on to just regular pilot expectations, as pilots are coming into the industry now. I think there's a lot more of them as a percentage that are doing it as a long-term career play. You know, the wages have increased significantly. There's fewer people, in my opinion, from what I've seen, that do it for the passion and the love of flying. Um, at least the ones that come in saying, I'm gonna go fly for Delta or whatever. Like they see that$500,000 a year captain pay. Now, like this is where I want to be. Is there a detriment to having that airline focus too early coming in? And then the inverse of that, are there pilots that are waiting too long to start building their experience and their resume around applying to the airlines?

Yeah. I think airlines is very broad. Like people I think when people think airlines, they think of like the majors, right? Like you're flying passengers, like that's what airlines is. And there's so many different facets of it because there's like part one hundred that act as one twenty one. Like there's the cargo side of things, there's charters, you know, like there's so many different facets of it. I think as a whole. You have to be focused on being a pilot, which might sound very broad and generic, but long term, like you do have to set yourself up for success, like not only technically, but like ethically, right? Like you don't want to have a DUI or you know, like something happen. Um, I think that even flight schools, you know, like they they push these pilots through the the mills. Let's, you know, let's hurry up and get it done. We'll get the next one in the seat, like move on to CFI, move on. And I think with that perspective, I think people sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture of like this is setting you up for your career, no matter where you go. Right? It will come back to your check ride failures. It will come back to like stage checks. It will it will come back to all of that, and you'll have to address it moving forward no matter where you go. Um, and so I don't like preparing, I think you have to prepare as a person, right? Obviously, your technical skills, by the time you're being brought in for an interview, they know that you can fly, at least to some regard, right? Like you have your certs and ratings, you you've passed something in your life. Um, and from there they can kind of teach you the rest. But uh all of it is mitigating risk. Like you just want to be as l least red flaggy. Is that we'll we'll trademark that term, red flaggy, um, on the resume, but also in person too. And so I think just thinking of the big picture, it's like, okay, just like you may have your set sight on Delta or American, but you have to also have an open mind because sometimes people get in there and they don't want to do the song and dance. Or maybe the life isn't for them. They want better quality of life, right? They want to be at home every night and they don't know how to get there. And so, like, you start investigating, and I think um, you know, you you talk about like most people just want it for the money. There are a lot of people who have just loved airplanes their entire life. And then the people who just want money for their career, they're like, they actually feel bad because they're like, I don't love their, you know, I don't look in the sky and be like, what is that? Where are they going? Like, I just don't do that, but they're still fully qualified and invested and they still love it. It's just on a different scale. And um, I don't think there's any, like, it's a very flexible, like, um, like end goal, I think, for a lot of people, but they don't know until they know or until they meet someone, talk to someone, and like they only have that perspective until that point. Um, that I think that people it's kind of like life, right? Like, you don't really think about your grades in high school until all of a sudden you're a senior and you're looking to apply to colleges and you're like, great, like I really could have done better on my SAT or you know, whatever the case is. Like, but it's the people in middle school who were involved with everything and like had already planned out their entire lives, which I don't think is entirely fair because our lives change, and especially with the second career pilots, it's like, okay, this is deer or die. Like, we have to do this, and so the mindset changes, but um yeah, it's it's hard. You just have to like set yourself up for success, however, that looks to you. I wish it was like cut and dry.

I kind of like that it's not because I think it it offers people journeys that they didn't know that they would go on. That's where I see the industry falling short. Is you have the ATPs of the world where it's like, here's your regimented set, like on this date, you're gonna do this check ride and this thing, and people just want to optimize for that path to American Delta United. And they miss a lot of really cool flying al along the way that one is fun and interesting, but two expands their skill set. Yeah, it's like if all you've ever done is sim time and now you're just punching in the FMC on an A320, like I don't know. I yeah, you're qualified and I'm sure you're really good at what you do, but you missed out on a lot of cool stuff along the way.

Yeah, yeah. It's and and then you see the other side where like they finally get to their their dream carrier, do whatever, and they're like, I I just want to bomb around in 172. Like I miss, I miss just GA, you know, like flying around. And um, it's just yeah, it's it's funny to hear like both sides of it where they're like, I miss where you're at. And then the other guys are like, I just want to be where you're at so badly. Like, please.

And then you have the inverse where the people get there, maybe they did enjoy aviation in the past, or maybe they didn't, and they just wanted to get to the airlines, but they're like, I don't want to see an airplane when I'm off work.

Yeah.

And I was that way, I was in drone operations, and there were guys that I worked with that would go out and fly 12 hours a day and then go back to their hotel and get out their personal drone and fly it for fun at night. Like, I want to hear the word drone, like I don't want anything to do with it after hours. Yeah. Um, so there's both sides of it. And I guess it it takes both kinds too. The industry's so big, you can't just have people that are like die hard from birth, passionate aviators.

Yeah. Yep.

As we go further into this, um, low-cost carriers, I think spirit has raised a lot of awareness around maybe some of the potential instability there. Do you think that affects the way that those pilots are starting to look at their job security long term?

I don't know. I think it's a very personalized question for each person because you know, some of those spirit pilots are like, I was in it for the long haul. Like it didn't, you know, like I was in it to the end, like I was committed. And probably everyone starts out that way a little bit until they're ready to move on. I mean, not everyone wants to go to the legacy carriers, right? They just don't. Like they have a better quality of life, they can commute easier, like whatever. It's just not the right fit for them. It's hard to, it's I don't know, it's hard to say. It's hard to say.

I just talked to a jet blue guy. Um, he's actually a sim instructor, but he flies the A220 at JetBlue too, and he was talking about this was pre-Spirit actually folding up, but it was writing on the wall kind of thing. And he was talking about when they were exploring to buy Spirit, and he said, if we had bought them, we'd both be out of business right now. Yeah. And it makes me wonder if the guys at Frontier at JetBlue at some of these other ones, Avelo and you know, whatever else, yeah, uh, if they see what happened to Spirit and they say, like, maybe I need to get to somewhere a little more secure.

Yeah. It's it's so hard to say because you even look like back to I don't know, let's say the early 2000s, right? When tons of American pilots were were furloughed and laid off. It's like it ebbs and flows. Like that is aviation in a nutshell. It ebbs and flows and you never know what's coming.

Yeah.

You never know what's around the corner. Same as the pilots. They lose a medical tomorrow, right? You can never you can prepare all you can, but at the end of the day, you have no control over what's going to happen.

Something else that I heard a lot of at the conference yesterday was interview prep from different companies that offer it. What are some of the pros and cons of obviously not any specific company, but just interview prep in general? Should pilots be seeking out a company to help them with that process?

I think a lot of people probably benefit from interview prep to a certain extent. I think more of it stems from their own fear. Um, pilots are very hard on themselves and they always want to be their best. I think they're used to being criticized, like or you know, like not wanting to screw up. Like that's a very that's a mentality that they have. That's just how it is. Um pros of it definitely, there's a lot of people that probably need it. Um and I think it's always going to be beneficial for you to learn yourself, you know, be able to talk about yourself. Like there are ways that it will benefit people in the long run of just being able to communicate certain failures or certain things that have happened that maybe they just don't have the framework of like how to mentally get that, like spit that out, or you know, like make it positive, whatever, because that is a song and dance. Um, I think that there's probably a lot of people who invest in it that don't need it, just for peace of mind they do it. Um, it's hard when everyone is talking about like doing it or you know, they feel pressured to do it. Um, I think it also can frame stale answers where recruiters expect the information to come out the same way every single time. I think I said on the last episode, like it used to be a game for me to see what people how they would answer a question.

Yeah.

And I would give myself points if I like guessed it before they even put it in. Um, there's a lot of that where it it just becomes like repeated like over and over again. And so I d I definitely think that there's um a benefit for it, but most of the information you can find for free in other places. It's just how you're being taught to convey that information and answer the questions. There's still people that do prep and like it'll never change them. Yeah, you know, like they just cannot answer a question, or then they talk for like 15 minutes at a time. That would be my problem answering questions, like talking way too long. So I think I think it's a benefit for the right person that needs it.

So I I heard a lot of different, I guess, strategies around it yesterday. Yeah. And the ones that I see as beneficial is just like doing the mock interview with somebody. So it's not, I mean, it's just like your your check ride. Yeah. Right. Like if you just if you went and practiced each individual maneuver separately on different things and didn't do it as like a mock check ride, you'd struggle. Everybody would struggle with that.

It's muscle memory. At the end of the day, it's muscle memory. And sometimes for me, even you know, if I'm doing someone's resume and I'm asking them these questions or cover letter and they don't have an answer, like over the most basic question, I'm like, you know yourself best. Like you better be able to talk about yourself because the next person is going to be able to talk about themselves just fine. So it's like if you if, you know, like ask your friends and family like how to describe you, or you know, like think about these keywords. And I think last time I touched upon like take an improv class. I just had a conversation today about someone and he took acting classes and improv classes. He's like, I can work my way out of any situation now.

That's crazy. I still need to do that. I didn't take your advice last time and I need to do that when I get home.

It's fun because you can just like it just teaches you to think on the fly and be able to like pause because I think what happens is a lot of times people just freeze up, right? They get they get scared, like they don't know the answer, and then like it just goes blank and you're like, What did I what do I say? It happens even me, like public speaking. It's like I can't tell you a word I said afterwards because it just like all comes out. Maybe it wasn't cohesive. Maybe it was. Yeah, you black out and like you're like paralysis, like paralysis is there. Like, I don't know.

I do that sometimes with the podcast. I'll like go back through when I'm editing. I'm like, I don't remember this part of the conversation.

I know all the time. Or like people tell me all the time things I said, and I'm like, sounds good. Yeah, yeah. I believe you.

I nailed it.

I believe you. Yeah.

Uh my daughter just had this thing at school where they had to memorize a historical figure and they'd like write their mini biography and then they called it wax museum. So they would dress up as that person, and you go around, like, hit the little button at their feet, and they'd recite the history. But when she was practicing it, first of all, her memory is ridiculous. Like, I wish I had a memory like that. She's like, I just uh build a picture of whatever it is in my head, and then I just read from that picture. I'm like, you know that's not normal, right? No, like we're just unique, regular people can't do that. Yes. Um, but anyway, when she was reciting it, it was lightning speed. And we're like, you're going so fast. She's like, no, I'm not. So we had to record her. Like, you have to watch yourself to see. So I think uh that's another good piece of the interview prep is somebody can tell you, like, dude, you were flying through this.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And uh sometimes just having the right, like you think that you're saying the right answer, but you're like, Why why would you say that? You know, like it comes across as whatever, or it's just not accurate. And yeah, people just have to sometimes having a like a third party can be like, no. Yeah, like you don't want to say that. Yeah, but there's been times where I've heard things where I'm like, I can't believe someone didn't correct you over that. Like that is actually like an HR, like, no, no.

And pilots are very analytical, so I think we're really good at like here's facts and figures. Like, I can recite the operations manual for this aircraft word for word, and then it's like, oh, tell me about a time that you had to, you know, you had like a confrontation at work.

You're like, oh yeah, and like sometimes I think it's hard to people just don't have examples. Yeah, they don't have examples or like I I have no idea. And so having a conversation with someone, well, you can be like really like walk through and like or hearing other people as well talk about it, they're like, Okay, like I can actually like build upon that. Like usually the cargo pilots going to passenger where they're like, I don't have an example, like really recording.

My jump seater one time, and yeah, he was friendly, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Uh what are common self-inflicted career mistakes you see from pilots? And outside of the obvious stuff, like D wise, whatever. Yeah, they got arrested for something dumb. This up like over disclosure, or they chose a poor type of flying job that just wasn't contributing to their success.

People are weird, like people are so weird. I have stories like from recruiters where I joke that we like trauma bond over situations, but people are just so strange. And um, some of the tactics that recruiters will use is that they make you comfortable, right? They make you comfortable so that you can relax, and then the true you kind of comes out. Most of the time, people are on their best behavior for interviews or whatever, but it I mean it can start even before with your email, like your your tone, like are you making mistakes? Like you have to be so PR focused on yourself as a brand. And I think people forget that they forget that they're um already a potential brand, like representation of that brand, right? And so I think a lot of it goes into professionalism. A lot of people get in trouble on social media. Sure. A lot of people. Um, a lot of people don't realize that hiring people are walking around in plain clothes at conferences and on social media looking at the comments of like some of the comments I see from people with pictures in uniform with their tail in the back. I mean, it it even happens like for CFIs at flight schools getting caught on Snapchat doing things or saying things. And so, you know, like th those are probably some of the bigger things, obviously, but people are just like just don't be weird. Yeah, you know, like they just don't be weird. Like we I we have a like I had I caused like an a riot on one of my reels about the emotional support water bottles, and I cannot tell you how many stories I have about these emotional support water bottles and people doing weird things with them, and it turns off the recruiters a water bottle. You just shot yourself in the foot over a water bottle and people don't realize it. It's just the little things I think that people don't realize that add up and like amp like are amplified. Like you're under a microscope from the time that you kind of start, right? Or even prior to starting.

I mean, even some of the comments from our last episode, uh people are like, oh, uh it's easy to get hired with DEI. It's like I mean like okay. Yes or no, why are you saying that online?

But it's always tied to their real name.

Yeah.

Always. Yeah. Like for the most part.

Yeah. Like, how do you think that's gonna go in your interview?

Yeah, because the recruiters see it. I get DMs from recruiters all the time.

I uh I heard yesterday that um United hired somebody, so when the pilot shows up to go through, I guess they like go to their flight museum or whatever, and there's somebody that's there to greet them, and they'll just like walk around the museum with them and chit-chat, and like while they're waiting for their interview, that person was hired specifically to assess the candidate during that walk around process, and they get a vote on whether you're hired or not.

Yeah, you have no clue who is looking at you, no clue who's undercover, like wherever, like even being flown places for interviews, like they'll call the hotel. How did you leave the room? Right? That stuff all compounds, and people don't realize that. And so when we talked about preparing, you know, long term, it's like you can't burn bridges. Yeah, your name is everything, like how you treat people is everything because what do you you're they're just gonna hand you the keys to a multi-million dollar jet at any point in your career and be like, oh yeah, you can fly this.

Also, a lot of people want to make it clear that jets don't have keys.

I know, I know. Like, thank you.

Yeah, we can't metaphors are not a thing we can use.

Yeah, we can't use anything, no hyperbole either. Yeah.

But yeah, what what you said in the last one too of are you a good representative for the company? Are you a good ambassador for that company? Because you if they hire you, you're showing up to those hotels in uniform, you're on their roster, yeah, and those people are gonna know.

Yeah, you're you're paid a lot of money not to just like sit there and fly. Yeah. People are not gonna like me saying that. Sit there and fly. But you know what I mean? Like the customers see you, they choose where to spend their money to. I get thanked every time I'm on Delta. Like, thank you for being our mileage plus effort. You know, like thank you for having your Amex and everything. I'm like, you're welcome, you know. But I mean, it goes far. Like the customer service aspect is all tied in to that PR aspect.

Absolutely. Cultural fit at an airline, we talked about it a little bit just now, but um something else that I heard yesterday is not all airlines are the same. And people think that United American Delta, what there's no difference. Yeah, right. How does someone who's trying to find who they really want to work for, you know, if you don't have an airline job, you're probably gonna go wherever. But if you have your pick of the litter, how do you decide which one's the right cultural fit for you?

You meet all of them, you go to conferences and you hang out with them. I actually just had a conversation before I came over here about next steps for this person. And they're like, I don't want to go to X Company. I don't get along with their pilots. I don't, I just don't, they're not my, you know, they're not, they don't feel like home to me or, you know, however you want to describe it. But this company did, and he's like, I wasn't expecting that. So there there is differences, and I think you don't know until you know. That's why it is important to network, and like that's what we preach until we're blue in the face is network, network, network. But you don't know the ins and outs. Like you get the shiny surface, but you don't you don't get to know the in-between or behind the curtains until you're talking to the people who you would be with, and they have a lot more insight than you could ever read about on the internet.

One of the guys at one of the presentations yesterday was ex-military, and he said, I've been to some of the shittiest places on the planet earth with some of the coolest guys I've ever met and had the time in my life, and I've been to some of the most beautiful places you've ever seen and hated it because the people I was with sucked.

Yeah, I know, which is why cultural fit is so important. Like, you know, like you get to the through the technical aspect of an interview, but usually it's cultural fit the first out of the gate. Can I sit with you on a trip? Are you crazy? Like, I actually was talking to um a captain not too long ago, and he said it is absolutely brutal. He's an older guy. He said it's absolutely brutal when we get someone in there that is younger and I can't have a conversation. They don't say two words to me. We only talk airplane, and the rest of the time is like silence. Like, I can't have a conversation on like a three to five day trip or whatever, however long they're together. Yeah. Like it's like pulling teeth. It's painful. You know, like you have to be able to have be able to converse with anyone. And that that's where the improv classes come in. Like, you gotta be able to like pick up and be able to relate to people and talk to them.

Yeah. I actually saw an interview with Scott Kirby right after our last one where he said verbatim, the same thing you said. Can I sit with him on a five-day trip? Yeah. Like, is is that gonna be something I can deal with?

Yeah, yeah.

Going along through the career decision-making process for people. Do you think the industry is becoming harder for mid-level pilots right now? So those guys that are maybe at a regional, maybe they're at an LCC and they want to go to a FedEx or a legacy compared to, I mean, again, not 21, 2, 3, but you know, maybe like 18, 19, 20 or the last couple years. Do you think now with the influx of the spirit guys and some of the other changes in the industry, is it getting more difficult for that group of people, or do you think they're in a good spot?

It could be. I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's still going to come down to the best fit, right? And it goes back to the cultural piece too. Like maybe some someone with, you know, 8,000 hours may not be the best fit, but someone with 3,000 might be. So I think it it's hard to like paint that with a broad brush, but um, I know I know of people being hired, you know, they're 25 years old and they're hired in just fine, like no problems at all. And then there's someone else sitting there with 3,000 hours or just not quite enough to be competitive. I mean, like, why am I not getting the call? Right? Yeah, and so there's no I I like to say there's no rhyme or reason to any of it. Like there's there's n there is a lot of gate. Kept information that people will never know about, right? Behind the scenes of why someone gets in, why someone doesn't get in, which is important to build your network of recommendations early because you never know when you're gonna have to rely on that. I wish there was like a cut and dry answer of like what that looks like. But some people have a great time. Like at any point in your career, I have 25,000 hour pilots, 15,000 hour pilots. So they're like, I don't know why I'm not getting a call. I'm like, well, it's probably because your resume is missing like 15 different things right now and it's very overwhelming. But um there is there is part of that aspect as well where meme are you representing yourself properly? You know, like are you bombing interviews? Like have you not interviewed in 20 years?

Yeah.

You know, like there there is an aspect of that probably in it too. But I'd say most people like if you're at like a hireable or competitive hireable minimum, and you can at least get your foot in the door for an interview, like the rest is on you.

This is gonna be a very it depends type of question, but you know, 2123, it was take the next step out of where I'm currently at to get the better job, to get the higher salary, whatever. In the last couple of years, I've seen a lot of people say stay put. If you have a job flying somewhere, even if it's not your ideal airline right now, it's so hard to move. Just stay put. Again, going back to the the spirit deal. Do you think people should, at low-cost carriers specifically, do you think they should try to make that move into a legacy? And again, legacies can go bust too. If like American made their revenue was like 60 billion last year and they only made 150 million bucks out of that, like that's not sustainable. So there's nobody's immune. Yeah. But I would say that the legacies have a better chance of getting a bailout or something along those lines and staying in business in the low cost too.

Yeah. It's uh again, it is it is hard, it's hard to say because some some of the people will cast a wide net, right? Like I always say you do have to look out for number one. At the end of the day, this is your life, your career. And some of them will stay and and you know, like be happy and hope for the best. Others will interview a lot of places. Some people are so desirable that they will have pick of the litter and interview everywhere and then you know, just to see what's out there and then hold off and then wait. It's hard to say. I wish that there was like an answer. You know, the magic eight ball where you shake it and be like, Yeah, like do it, do it now. Or like to hindsight's 2020, like, oh, you should have done it.

Yeah, it's just hard to lose seniority. I get it. But again, if your airline's gonna go belly up, you're losing it either way.

Yeah.

Um I want to pull some questions from the last episode. There were some good ones. Oh, yeah. And uh I tried to keep them professional. There were some questions that I like. Were there? Um Do companies evaluate the social media presence? And if so, how do you handle candidates that film in the cockpit? Assuming GA, obviously, where it's legal, setting up cameras, metaglasses, that kind of thing.

Yeah. Um a lot of so a lot of like we call them like the influencer pilots, quote unquote, right? A lot of them will have disclaimers of being like, oh, like, you know, like no passengers, doors open, walk arounds completed. Like they like cover the whole like gauntlet of like it's okay. Um, most of them will talk with their company ahead of time, which I think is important because you like there's a lot of social media parts of the contracts and stuff for a lot of companies, right? Of like what you can do, what you can't do. And it's always funny to me talking with pilots because they're very tight-lipped about who they work for sometimes where they'll be like, Oh, at my company, like we do that. Like they're very quick to be like, nope, you don't need to know.

I work for a major.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're like, okay. Um, and they're very quick to like shut that down. But I I know like some people have gotten in trouble. I don't know if they've got fired or not. I didn't look into that. I think there have been a couple people that got in like big trouble.

Yeah.

Um, and it's hard to with AI now. Like, you're like, is that is that real? Like I feel like on Facebook there's a lot of that where I'm like, this is like such a like scam. But then there's also other parameters. Like, I have a lot of clients in Europe who will like send me amazing footage from the flight deck, and you're like, can't really technically do anything with this. You know, like it's out there, it's out there, and people probably I don't think they're really doing it in North America. I would hope not.

Yeah, there's also some that it's almost like a benefit to the airline. Like they use it in their advertising. Like my lay over life is he flies for United, and he's like poster child for a lot of the United stuff. And I'm sure he's had those conversations with the company around what what's good, what's not good. But yeah, um, I think he does it in a way where it brings people into that like united family, so to speak, of like, oh, I I like United because I watch him and I like it.

It puts yeah, it puts a personal spin on it where you feel connected with it. I think it's interesting though, because even it like you look at GA, like a lot of CFIs, or you know, like they'll do that where they're they put up the cameras and stuff, and and then they're like, I don't touch anything like in flight. You you see all the comments and be like, how unsafe. Or I think someone actually commented on one of my reels about that. They're like, Maybe you should have like I I can't remember. One of my friends was right seat out of um Boston, and like we got a really cool like she took an amazing video um flying out of Boston, and the comments on it were just like, This is why there's so many crashes, and like Oh, people will call the FAA on you.

I know, like they're just all about catching somebody, doing something.

Yeah, that's a very common thing with with a lot of like influencers where all of a sudden the fizz do is like, what's happening? Right? It's it's kind of scary and it deters people from doing it. I mean a lot of them are doing it safely.

It it's interesting with the military too. There's a reason you see a lot of Navy aircraft videos and not a lot of Air Force aircraft videos. And my understanding of it is the Air Force tells you what you're allowed to do in the cockpit, and the Navy tells you what you aren't allowed to do. So as long as you aren't doing the few specific things the Navy said you can't do, you can do it. You're fine. But the Air Force is like, you can only do these things.

I'm gonna fact check that.

Yeah. Please put I I heard.

Yeah, I heard through the grapevine. Yeah, that's super interesting.

Uh speaking of military, on to the next one. True or false, ex-military is the best qualification.

Best qualification, that's a loaded question. I would say that military is often given preference, right? Because of who they are and what they've done. That's a very regimented lifestyle, lifestyle training, like how things are going, um, very in line with the airlines, right? Safety, procedures, operations, all the things. I think that there's a um maybe not like a stereotype with it, but well respected. You're gonna follow the rules. You're probably not a a red flag per se for training because it is very similar. That's why a lot of the 141 schools are popular because it's a very regimented, strict training process for the most part. So I'd say that's probably why they know what to expect. They're just they're good guys. I love all the military guys. Like I have the best conversations with them.

They have the best stories.

Yeah, oh like crazy stories.

Uh soft skills can be difficult to evaluate in the recruitment and hiring process, but they're really important in a modern cockpit. How do soft skills or how would you show soft skills on a resume and in an interview?

I think that your soft skills will shine through from the minute that you hit apply. Um, because like soft skills are not just, you know, like customer service and you know, like how you are, like mannerisms. Like it can come back to like, are you detail-oriented? You have like 30 different typos in your resume. Did you put that you're part of the fight club and not a flight club? Uh that's a real story.

Did I tell you my email sign-off story? No. Oh, we sign off for guards.

Oh, yes. Yeah.

One time. I didn't send it, but the G got switched to a T one time. And I'm glad I pre-freed myself.

Autocorrect has made it so hard, right? Where it will automatically correct words that are correct. And you're like, that doesn't make sense. Um, but like the soft skills shine through way quicker than people think. Like from the phone call to the email to like your resume, your app, like those are all soft skills, like conveying soft skills. Right? Like we can, I can spot that a million miles away. Or like the yeah, they just there's there's a lot that shines through in the entire process, which can also be reflected on the resume. And the resume doesn't necessarily have to be like, I'm amazing with people, right? Like in that there is room for fluff in a way that is active where you're actually showing how you had customer service. You're not just like saying, I had customer service. Like you're like, I loaded and unloaded bags, I like helped people onto the plane, like whatever that is, like it has to be a very active, journalistic, you know, way of writing about it. But the yeah, the soft skills are like the number one thing. Like from how someone answers the phone is very telling to you. Like it drives me nuts when people answer the phone and they're like, it's noisy in the background, or they're you know, like whatever the case is, but even like the typos and like emails and like being super casual, like don't call me bro.

Yeah, please. I did a lot of interviews, um, conducted a lot of interviews in the job I was with for like six, seven years, whatever that was. Um, but I would do all our drone pilot interviews and like people in cars on the side of the road.

Oh, that's nice they're on the side of the road, not driving.

People sometimes driving. Oh my gosh. People on the job site of the job they're currently a part of while they're applying to our job.

Yeah.

That does not make me want to hire you.

I could talk, I could talk, I did a TED talk on that. Like how people like and that goes back to like people being weird, and they're like, What do you mean? I'm myself, but I'm like, no, don't do anything weird. Yeah, like no red flags. Like just keep it.

Like if you're currently working a job while you're interviewing with me for a job, yeah, I'm gonna think you're gonna do the same thing when you get to my company.

You absolutely are.

So this ties into what we were talking about with a lot of experienced guys kind of coming out into the market now. Maybe they haven't flown in a long time. This individual I shortened his comment a little bit, but uh 25 years of 121 experience, 15,000 hours, 3,400 turban PIC, three type ratings, two degrees, no failures or violations, was a mentor, volunteer work, a lot of organizations, six letters of recommendation, 18 years at an airline, and applied to a quote unquote better airline. Why even interview me at that point?

Are you gonna fit in with us? Are you walking in the door with that attitude? Right? Are you better than everyone?

And in the longer version of his comment, he did not get that job.

So maybe your resume sucks. I it it's hard with a lot of the guys that are guys and girls at that level of you know, like looking to move on to things or retiring from the airlines looking to move on to 135. It is a different you almost get slotted into the same group as like CFIs looking to move on. It's like this reverse thing. Um and it's hard. It's hard, but like you really have to go back and break it down and see where where you could improve things to be better. Because if you're coming in that well, you should hire me. I mean, like that's gonna come across in an interview.

Yeah. Uh true or false, bad credit, speeding tickets, and no degrees are red flags.

I wouldn't I don't know about no degrees. Um, I think those all speak volumes about you as a person. Right? Like they could be red flags depending on what you what else you can ha have done, but it's all about mitigating risk. Everything that you do, your resume is meant to mitigate risk, your application is meant to mitigate risk. Like we want to have all the answers and not have to worry about you. Like, why do you have bad credit? Why do you have 10 speeding tickets?

From the risk mitigation standpoint, like it's not just crashes or incidents with the airlines. Like, they spend a lot of money training you, a lot of money training you. And if you're only gonna be there for a couple years or you're you're gonna do something stupid that gets your license pulled, like that's just money out the door for them.

And what about the PR team?

Yeah.

Like scrambling to be like, oh great, you showed up drunk.

Maybe kind of a rapid fire hard truths segment. What career advice do you hate hearing over and over again?

There's so much of it. I could I could probably do a TED talk. I'd say probably the number one thing about career advice is just the incorrect information that people have and latch on to, or they think that their career is over because so-and-so said this on the internet. They and then they shut the door entirely. Like, I hate that. I don't shut the door on yourself. Like, you need to go out and have those conversations and figure it out for yourself.

Uh, what are pilots wasting money on?

Everything. Chick-fil-A. Oh, I'm just kidding. Um, I think a lot of times when people are building time or going to flight school, they don't shop around. And even relocating for a short amount of time would be more beneficial to them in the long run than sticking where they are, paying$500 for a$172.

What red flags do pilots unknowingly create in their resumes and interviews?

Oh my gosh. Gaps, mistakes, errors, pilots submitting resumes with no flight hours on them. Why am I not being called? Because, sir, you have no hours on your resume. You don't know you're qualified. Like that's why you're not getting a call.

What kind of person do you think struggles the most in really competitive hiring markets?

Um, not being confident in themselves. Like if they have the times, I would say not being confident in themselves or doing something that throws people off, right? Like you kind of you have to be able to converse with people. Like you want to know about people and and learn about them. And the people who are closed off are very rehearsed. Like it's like you don't know that person.

And then what advice would you give that person?

Take an improv class. No, I'm gonna start with my own improv class.

You should have been a good advocate for it.

Um I think like you really just have to talk to people who know you, find a really good mentor. Like I think we talked about having that like next step, like higher step, like having those mentorship levels and being able to bounce things off of them because they'll tell you if it's wrong or you're doing the wrong thing or you're weird at home.

If they're not, they're not at least. They probably should. Yeah. Hey, thanks for listening. If you're a pilot and you want to work with Carolyn's team, you can find her at pilotresumes.com. If you want to hear more from aviation professionals just like Carolyn, you can subscribe to the AirPod on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify. I will see you right back here on the AirPod.