The Aviation Career You Weren't Told About | Flight Test Engineer

Picture in your mind a NASA engineer. What do you see? Starch white shirt with pins in the pocket, thin black tie, thick glasses. They might not look exactly like how you imagine.

You don't look like an engineer, you don't act like an engineer, you don't talk like an engineer.

NASA is known around the world for space launches, but there's a lot of work behind the scenes that most people never hear about.

You see the astronauts, and they're the face of NASA, but you don't see the process of how they got to being these superhuman people.

Today I talked with Kate. She's a former NASA engineer, graduate of the National Test Pilot School, a marathon runner, and has grown a following of over 80,000, sharing her experiences as a STEM professional. No big deal.

Somebody let me fly a military jet with uh no pilot's license as a civilian. Where does that happen?

We talk about how the space launch industry is changing.

We need really smart, talented people in the commercial industry, but I think we also need them in government because it fills a really important need.

What being a test flight engineer is really like.

You have to be able to call somebody's baby ugly. Be honest about what you saw, even if it's not the answer that somebody else wants.

Some uh unsettling experiences at test pilot school.

If the pilot knows it's your first time, they're probably gonna try to make you sick. But you're like try not to barf.

And the secrets to success in this high-pressure world.

I don't know that people realize how important little things are in order to set yourself apart.

My name is Mitchell. This is the AirPod, and I have one very important question for Kate. What exactly does a flight test engineer do?

Uh, well, I like to say that we're kind of like the people who bring the whole team flight test team together. So we're kind of depending on where you work, it's kind of different everywhere of how they define what a flight test engineer is. Um, but the basics is that um you're kind of like a liaison between like the pilots, the mechanics, the uh discipline engineers, and you're um you're basically in a very broad way, you're um in charge of like writing test plans, like planning and executing flight tests of like aircraft and their systems. Um so yeah, you're really um there to make sure that you prove out a system before it's released to the public or the the military or whatever, and uh making sure that that system is safe for use.

So very cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. I want to uh later on I want to get into you know test pilot school and the flight test engineering side, but maybe let's go back to the beginning. How how did you find a passion or an interest in aviation and engineering in general?

Yeah, well, it actually started um with an interest in space. So I grew up in North Dakota and um at night it's very dark. And uh so I used to stand out in the driveway with my dad. The first recollection of that is around like maybe second grade or you know, 10 years old or something like that. And I remember standing in the driveway, looking up at the dark night sky, and just feeling so small uh in relation to the rest of our universe and just like being so curious with how uh all of that works and just realizing there was so much about the world that we don't understand or the universe that we don't understand, and I wanted to be a part of humankind's journey to discovery. So through that, I guess I somehow found out about NASA and I I realized that I wanted to work there and ultimately I wanted to be an astronaut um to help, you know, be a part of humankind's journey to discovery, but um I had heard that that was really hard to do, so I was like, maybe I'll settle for mission control. So I looked up when it was time to start uh applying to colleges, I looked at what types of um degrees those people had, and they were mostly engineers, so I didn't really know what engineers did, but I decided that that's what I was gonna try to do. So that's kind of the the the basics of how I got into it.

Nice. Yeah, when I was younger, obviously uh I think everybody was into space, 80s, 90s with the space shuttle and everything. Oh, yeah. My my dad grew up during the Apollo era and he was just fascinated with it. He had all these old school reports of the Saturn V rocket and all that stuff. But um, in my mind, I was gonna go to the Air Force Academy and then go fly fighter jets and then go fly the space shuttle. And then I graduated in 2009, and by then they had already announced that you know, retiring the space shuttle and all that stuff. Well, that's not gonna work.

Well, I was gonna say I graduated high school in 2010 and I heard from everybody that NASA had been shut down because in in North Dakota, or at least like the people I was surrounded by, they thought when they heard that the space shuttle program was ending, they thought that that meant NASA was shutting down. And so, like ever same story, like everybody told me like that will never happen, like you need to choose a different dream. Um, but lo and behold, I found a way.

Yeah. But yeah, I think uh people focus on the S in NASA and forget about all the other letters of the acronym, especially the aeronautic side. So as you went along your journey, uh I found you on Instagram and I love a lot of the stuff that you've been posting on there, and it seems to really encourage people to get into the field. What what encouraged you to first start sharing that journey online?

I think it was uh in college because I went to college. Well, so I have very supportive parents. They've always like any goal I've ever had, they've said, okay, you can do it if you put your mind to it. And so when I got to college, I was not prepared for the fact that I would be such a minority. Like I did not know that it wasn't a common career field for women to go into engineering. And so I felt pretty isolated at times. There were a lot of times where I felt like I was told, you don't look like an engineer, you don't act like an engineer, you don't talk whatever like an engineer. Uh so I really wanted to build a community for especially women, but I mean, I really uh share my content for everyone to uh get interested in in it um in the STEM fields, but particularly women, because we are such a minority. And so um I really wanted to build a community and I a community that I didn't always feel like I had going through um the process, and I didn't always feel like I had people who looked like me to look up to. So uh that's really why I decided to start sharing. And then like we kind of talked about in the uh I guess probably before we started recording, but um, there's a lot of career fields that you just don't know about until you hear about them some way or see in a book or on TV, and then you're like, well, shoot, like I missed the the boat on that, so I wanted to share um about my journey for that reason too.

Yeah, very cool. Was that like an instant? Did people pick up on that right away, or did you it did it take you a long time before a following started to form?

Um I don't know about a long time, but I feel like people were really fascinated by uh sometimes like an organization like NASA, you see the astronauts and they're the face of NASA, but you don't like see the process of how they got to being these like superhuman people. And so for me, it felt like I was just a normal person who worked really hard and got lucky and had this really cool, interesting career that not many people maybe get to have. And so I felt like that's probably what helped me um reach more people was just like sharing this very unique aspect of NASA that you and it was the aviation side that people maybe didn't necessarily realize was there.

Sure. Yeah, I think when I found you it was around the time you were going to test pilot school. I started seeing some of the posts around that. And uh uh at first I thought it was you know military related, just because that's what I think most people think of when they think of test pilot school. Um, but it was really interesting to see the civilian side of it and kind of your process as you went through that. Um, and we'll get into that later, but I want to start with NASA because uh I think I read that you got an internship. Was it your second year of college at NASA?

Yeah, I think it was my second year. Um I had interned at GE Aviation. My school required co-ops, which at first I saw as like a roadblock to getting to my ultimate dream of getting a full-time job in NASA, but it ended up being such a like a godsend that I um had to do the co-ops because that's how I got ultimately got my foot in the door there. Um so yeah, my first internship was at GE Aviation, and I was working on like uh the Phantom Booster team, so the front part of an aircraft engine on that team. Um, and then I was like, okay, well, this is cool, but I want to work on like the whole airplane, not just part of an engine. And that's where I really learned that I was a big picture person. Um, so from there I kind of talked to some people and found out that there was uh a flight test facility for the aircraft engines. Um so that's how I actually made my way first out to California because um it's just in Victorville, like I don't know, not too far from here. I flew over it today. Um and uh I got in there and then by that time I had kind of emailed, well, I emailed every NASA center my resume. And I was like, hey, I really want to work here. Here's my resume. And um I think doing that was kind of like setting myself apart as opposed to just going through an online job application process. And uh lucky enough, they eventually um Johnson Space Center replied and uh interviewed me. And there's like more to the story, but that's the very basics of it, and uh that's how I kind of got my foot in the door there.

So yeah. What was that first internship like? Did it feel like, you know, fish in a big pond kind of feeling?

Or not really, but it felt like so like I was in the place I was meant to be. Like I felt so like everything had fallen into place so perfectly, and it was like everything I had dreamed it would be. It was such a like awesome hands-on experience. There were women in leadership roles, and uh it was a very encouraging place to be. Um, and I had the first internship there was with the um, they're a group that uh sits on console and mission control and they teach the astronauts how to fix things like the toilet and uh different other pieces of hardware on the space station. And so it was like a really cool experience to get hands on. Um, while also like I don't know, I was like surrounded by astronauts. It was so surreal for me coming from North Dakota. I was like, these people are superheroes and you are like talking to me. So it was it was pretty cool. Yeah.

Yeah, that is very cool. As you went through the internships, when did it seem like, you know, this could really be a career? Like this isn't just a college gig. I I could do this long term.

Well, that was the really cool thing about their um Pathways Interim program is that you were guaranteed three internships with them. And then you're pretty much because you were already like in as a civil servant, um, it's one of the few ways to to get your foot in the door as a civil servant. And um uh as a result, you were pretty much not 100% guaranteed a job after graduation, but you were uh highly likely to get a job. Uh so like it was it was pretty cool. I got to try three different, I think, yeah, three different places, uh, just to kind of see where I fit best within the organization. So sure.

Did what was your favorite out of the spots that you interned at?

Well, that's how I ended up getting into aircraft operations where I ultimately got my full-time job offer. Uh, I I really couldn't pick a spot. I mean, I loved the team that did the mission control stuff. I thought that that was like so cool. You got to talk on a headset, sit in mission control, train. Um, you were so like my family is huge on lifelong learning, and so I felt like I was learning a lot of new stuff, and I got to you would eventually train astronauts. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but also like the aircraft operations side was so cool because even as an intern, they let me fly on the airplanes, and that's why I ultimately decided to go there was I saw how hands-on it was, and uh the opportunity to fly really intrigued me, and so that's ultimately why I ended up there.

Yeah, let's dig more into that because that's the the A, the first A in NASA that I think people forget about is um it actually comes before the space part.

That's true.

So uh what does NASA do on the aviation aeronautical side?

Well, they do a lot of stuff a lot of things.

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But uh particularly Johnson Space Center, they have about 20 aircraft, and their main mission is to train the astronauts for what they call a spaceflight readiness training, and that's in the T-38 aircraft. They're still flying the same T-38s that they flew to train for the Apollo missions, and um so that's pretty cool. Um, and that's why you're always surrounded by astronauts, and then uh secondarily, they do airborne science. So we had uh two Gulfstream aircraft, a G3 and a G5, um, that were airborne science platforms, and then they had a super guppy, which is like a huge cargo aircraft, and then and they could like transport parts of the space station in that vehicle, and then um they had WB-57s, which were high-altitude weather reconnaissance type aircraft, but they used them for airborne science as well. And so the aircraft I worked on primarily uh were the uh Gulfstream aircraft.

Very cool. Yeah, a little different setup, I imagine, than a traditional Gulfstream that you know used as a business jet.

Yeah, so they basically, I mean, not entirely, but they gutted them and um and well one of them had big holes cut in the bottom, and that's what I mostly worked on as an engineer was um they had inch and a half thick fused silica glass that we put over the uh in these holes in the floor, and we could mount instruments above them and then look down on our earth and collect uh airborne science data. Like uh they could see how snow uh was changing through um and different stuff like that. I wasn't the scientist, I was the engineer helping install the payloads, but that was cool. And then uh the other thing we would do with those airplanes actually, so it looked more like a business aircraft in that um configuration was we transported astronauts um honestly all around the world, but um for uh we transported them for their training and then also for launches to the space station as well.

Okay. And was this in the era when we were still using Russian uh rockets to get to the space station?

Uh yeah, yeah. Uh in 2020, I was uh on the first ever NASA aircraft to land in Kazakhstan uh because during COVID they allowed us to land there. We had to bring over some uh I don't think we brought the astronauts, but we did bring some other people and transported transported important people and um ultimately astronauts. But yeah, I got to see a launch from Kazakhstan, which was pretty remarkable.

That's very cool. That's probably a very small list of people that have been able to do that. Yeah. Um did they still have the shuttle trainer Gulf Stream when you were there?

Nope. Uh I can't remember what year. I assume they retired those around 2010, 2011 when they stopped flying the space shuttle. But no, uh, they hit were all by that point uh I think in museums or wherever they ended up. I think they're there might be one out here at Edwards Air Force Base, actually.

But okay, makes sense. Yeah, I d I guess for people that don't know, um, you know, is it modified Gulf Stream? Was it a two or a three?

Uh I believe it was a G2, yeah.

Yeah, and um to simulate the approach path of the space shuttle, they would go, I think only the main gear could come out, and then they could put the thrust reversers out in flight and have that like anyway. I listened to uh got to hear Fred Hayes speak one time and he talked about um you know the the glider model of the shuttle and all that stuff and um his first flight on that. And uh again for those that don't know, he was on Apollo 13, and he actually said his first landing on the glider shuttle was the scariest moment of his career because the flight computer he was doing little tiny inputs and it's all fly by wire, very early fly by wire. And he said that the flight computer actually locked him out when he was almost to the runway. Oh, my god. Just overloaded.

Oh my gosh.

So it was it was cool to hear him talk about that.

I'm sure, yeah, that's amazing. Uh it would have been cool to fly on that aircraft though, because um the woman who trained me um for my position as a flight science officer, she used to fly on as in the same kind of role, uh like a flight engineer on the the G2, the shuttle trainer. So that would have been quite the experience for sure.

Yeah. Uh while you were there, what was your favorite project that you worked on? Uh I think the most impactful, I guess.

Probably the craziest, most impactful uh project that actually uh won me a um my team, a uh silver achievement medal, which is a pretty prestigious award at NASA, uh was the um well there are so many good projects. Oh my gosh. But this one was in uh I believe it was also 2020. I did some crazy travel in 2020. I flew to Australia uh by way of crazy cool stops. We stopped in Wake Islands to get fuel and we stopped in um Guam and Hawaii and all kinds of stuff. But uh we got to Australia, had to quarantine for I think it was yeah, two weeks in a hotel. Uh that was wild. And then uh we got out of quarantine and got the aircraft ready to go. Um we had two NASA aircraft, I think the other one was from Langley, and uh we basically uh we had replaced the cabin windows with uh like a special cast acrylic um that was also like an optical grade for some cameras to be mounted behind them, and then we uh basically intercepted the the high-speed atmospheric re-entry of the Hayabusa 2 uh capsule. It had part of an asteroid, and the Japanese had sent it to space like 10 years before, and it just so happened to be coming back to Earth during COVID. So we had to do all these crazy precautions in order to make that mission happen. But I was gone for about a month in uh in Australia, so that was crazy. And seeing it come back like from the aircraft, we were like, it was it was crazy, it was so cool.

What did that look like coming back in?

Like, kind of like an asteroid, I guess. Okay, or like uh shooting star, you know, it was very bright and had a plasma tail on it, and uh it burned up pretty quickly, but it was it was pretty cool to see.

What was the most surprising part about the culture at NASA when you got there?

I was surprised by how many women were in leadership roles. Um and I was surprised by how many young people were on my team, actually. Um, I was in a smaller team just because there's like main Johnson Space Center, and then we were on like uh an old air reserve base called Ellington Field. So I was like a little bit secluded from the main campus. Um granted I still had to go over there for certain things, but it was so awesome, all the responsibility I was given as a young person to do like really cool projects. Like I was able to be a part of the project lifecycle cycle from start to finish as an engineer. We got the we were assigned to the project. Uh we worked to do all the requirements definition, design reviews, airworthiness reviews, install stuff on the aircraft, do a flight readiness review or whatever, and then go and actually fly the mission uh as aircrew. That was like pretty remarkable. And yeah, just to be a part of that whole entire process and as a young person in my 20s was so cool. Um, it's still something I look so fondly on.

So is that full life cycle involvement pretty rare in engineering in general?

It's hard for me to say because I've only worked really worked at like NASA and now another company, um, other than for internships. I would say it probably is, only because for like larger uh aerospace companies, you're generally uh responsible for much narrower uh things. Like right now, I'm in flight test or whatever or testing. But in an um, there's other people who are like just discipline engineers, they're responsible for one small system. Whereas like at NASA, I just like I got to see so much, I guess. So it was kind of unique in that way.

Yeah. Uh after my space shuttle dreams died, uh I started college uh in aerospace engineering. And in my mind, I was like, oh, I'm gonna design a whole airplane. And then I realized, like, oh no, there's somebody that works on like the brake calipers and somebody that works on the rivets and like whatever. I'm like, no, this I don't want to do this.

Well, and I think that's why I liked it so much. It was so like it was uh it wasn't so in the weeds engineering, it was more like big picture, and that's like really what I enjoy doing, and it's not like full like systems engineering or anything like that where it's so high level, but it was yeah, I think it was a good mix of like in the weeds, but not like in the weeds.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it had a mix of operational tune.

With kind of the rise of SpaceX, Blue Origin, some of these other commercial space companies, and you know, we hear about NASA budget cuts all the time. It seems like they're the first ones on the chopping block when the money gets tight. Um, have you seen or do you think there's a lot of attrition of really talented engineers and individuals that maybe otherwise would have been at NASA that are now going to these commercial companies?

Yeah, honestly, I'm really disappointed at um I guess just the cavalier nature of how the government civilians have been like been treated through the past few years. Um I think that we really easily as government employees get caught up in the crossfire of politics. And I don't think we realize in the moment like how damaging that can be to the future of our like industry. Um like I think we need really smart, talented people in um in the commercial industry, but I think we also need them in government because I think that it fills a really important need of like as a like for instance a NASA employee, like like well, as NASA as an organization, like you just inherently can't take the same risks that you can at a company like Blue Origin or SpaceX because you have um the taxpayer to answer to, but as a result, you're uh I I don't want to say you're like under more rigor in terms of safety, but like there's just different, it's just different. And um I wish that we would be a little more uh judicious about how we treat um government civilians, I guess, in terms of like in general, you're not making the same salary as you would at a private company. So like you have to do something to keep them keep them there. And um I think there's a lot of like leadership or like um professional development opportunities as a government employee that do kind of fill the gap of like maybe you're not paid as much, but you have a lot of opportunity and there's like really unique, cool uh projects. But yeah, it's just an interesting dynamic, I think. Having to the furloughs and all that, you know, I dealt with that.

And like we talked about, you know, NASA's not just space. And I hear it from a lot of people every time that the budget cuts come down. It's like, well, uh, we don't need to go to the moon, or we don't need to go to Mars, or we don't need to spend money on blah blah blah. But all the research that's done by NASA in a number of fields, not just aeronautics. I mean, there's um uh like agricultural research and uh weather research and all this stuff that's integral. I mean, you you look at just the aviation industry and commercial aviation in particular, like the weather is so crucial to having decent weather. We've seen so many interruptions this past week because weather across the southeast and most of the U.S. was just a nightmare. And it's like all these flights are getting delayed, and you know, uh, don't really know where I was going with that, other than NASA's important beyond the space launches.

Yeah, the list goes on and on. I mean, they're doing uh research right now on the supersonic booms with uh the X-59 aircraft. They're they enable a lot of technology. Like I think SpaceX has done remarkable things, but if you look at uh how they were able to sustain through like times in which there was no market for what they were doing, uh like NASA is the reason they are where they are. I should I don't want to say they're the only reason. They're not the only reason they are where they are today, but they they all they ultimately probably wouldn't have succeeded as quickly as they have, or if at all, if it weren't for the the large amount of dollars and um other resources that NASA provided in the early days, because um I mean they give them the commercial crew um contract and many other contracts and uh and and all that. So I I I think they the government needs um these commercial companies and and the reverse is true as well.

So yeah, it's like the phrase, you know, standing on the back of giants, uh all the NASA research through 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that allowed SpaceX and Blue Origin and these other companies to just have their starting line had moved so much further forward because they weren't having to figure it all out from scratch.

Just a note that um none of what I said is uh me speaking behalf on behalf of NASA or the government or anything like that. Um it's a previous employer of mine, and these are all my personal opinions.

NASA led to test pilot school. Right. And this is this is the one I was really interested in. As I mentioned, when I saw test pilot school, I think the first thing that came to my mind for sure is military. I think historically that's been probably the biggest volume of test pilots. A lot of, again, early astronauts that went into the NASA program were test pilots or military guys that went through test pilot school. What is, I guess, what is the National Test Pilot School and then what does that look like going in as a civilian?

Yeah, so um I first found out about test pilot school because of NASA, because they used to send um, at least Johnson Space Center used to send like one engineer every uh four years because they had like some agreements with the Naval Test Pilot School. And ultimately my boss said that we weren't going to be doing that anymore. They wanted to, they didn't see the benefit quite as much, and they wanted to send, like, maybe have one class come and teach all the engineers rather than have one single person go and get this like million-dollar education uh and then bring back what they'd learned. And so I've really struggled with um I didn't like I didn't like that answer ultimately because I wanted to go to test pilot school myself. And uh my coworker who had been like he had just gone or was um, I think he had just come back from test pilot school, and he had heard that the national test pilot school had a fellowship and the application was open. So I decided to apply. It was for a flight test engineer because both pilots and engineers we can talk more about that, but pilots and engineers both go to test pilot school. It's a common misconception. Um, and so I applied and got in, and it was honestly the hardest decision I've had to make was leaving behind what I felt was my dream job to and I I was only there for at NASA for like four years, and it felt like I can't believe I'm leaving this behind after only four years. Like it didn't, I didn't feel ready, but I also felt like if I didn't take the opportunity, it would pass me by, and so I had to take it. So the military test pilot schools only have so much room to take uh foreign military. So other organ other there's only like seven or nine like internationally like recognized uh test pilot schools, and the National Test Pilot School in California is one of them, and um, they fill that need. They take a lot of foreign military students and train them on how to test airplanes and spacecraft and everything else. And um, so they had a scholarship program uh for flight test engineers, and um, they take usually two per year, and um so it's the same as like a the military test pilot schools, it's just a civilian nonprofit school instead.

And then maybe I guess what does a test pilot or test pilot engineer do today? Because again, in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, 1950s, 60s, like there we built this plane, we think it's gonna work, get in it and see if it works. Which, you know, with modern CAD and uh simulations, all that stuff, not you know, we pretty much know the plane's gonna fly. So, what does uh being a test pilot and a test pilot engineer look like today?

So that's what's funny is like you look at Top Gun 2 and they make it look like it's just this like haphazard thing. You get in an airplane, you fly it like you're a cowboy, but it's a lot more calculated than that. So most of what you're doing as a flight tester is spending your time planning the test. So, like, if you look at any commercial aircraft that's flying today, it went through a rigorous flight test program. So you have a brand new aircraft, and you need to figure out all kinds of things about uh like rotation speed, like what uh speed you have to rotate at in order to not have a multitude of issues upon taking off and making sure it can actually lift off the runway and how long it needs to uh have for a runway to take off safely. So uh that's just one small part of flight tests, uh is like civil certification. Um, but in ultimately in test pilot school, you're learning how to test the airplanes, and there are tried and true. Like back in those days, they developed what we call flight test techniques. And I'm I'm learning as an engineer or a pilot in test pilot school all about how to execute those flight test techniques. So I'm learning not only the very rigorous engineering technical background about aerodynamics and how airplanes work and performance and handling qualities, flying qualities, I'm learning all that, but then I'm also learning how to actually execute that in the air to make sure that I'm testing appropriately the aircraft and how it's gonna fly its flying qualities and how it's gonna handle, how it's gonna feel when I'm flying it, and that kind of thing. Does that make sense? Cool.

Yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah. So it it opens career opportunities, I guess, for any aircraft manufacturer, right? They pretty much all have to go through some form of testing like that.

Yeah, like Airbus, Boeing, they all have a flight test whole department whose job is to to do all that, and they do it in in hand in hand with the FAA or other organization. If you're in Europe, it's EASA. That's why so the interesting thing about the National Test Pilot School, they have all these foreign military, so as a result, they have in Europe the equivalent of the FAA is EASA, and they require you to have gone to test pilot school in order to execute flight tests. So, like for instance, Airbus Germany will send over pilots and engineers to get this certification so that they can ultimately perform flight tests over there.

Gotcha. Um, and you said they handle a lot of foreign military pilots and I presume engineers too that come in and go through the school. Uh, is there any difference in the curriculum between a military student and a civilian student going through the program?

Nope. Um, the only difference is that um the National Test Pilot School is unique in that they have um a master's only program. So we'll have students coming and going that are just getting a master's degree. Um, but they'll do the academic parts, but they won't do any of the flying. So it's like more cost-effective. Um but um no, there's no difference between my military counterparts and and me going through the full year-long professional course. We all did all of the things. And in fact, the pilots and engineers are both in class together doing the exact same thing because um the whole point is that pilots and engineers need to speak the same exact language in because they work so closely hand in hand in industry. So we're learning how to speak the same language, and that's why me as an engineer who doesn't actually at the time didn't know how to fly airplanes, they still let me fly them with uh, of course, an instructor. Um, because I need to know if the pilot's telling me what they're seeing and feeling, I need to know exactly what they're talking about because I've seen it too.

Yeah. I I really like this point because uh I've had a lot of comments from people on my various clips and videos, and I've I've heard it my entire life too. It's like, well, you know, the engineers don't understand what the pilot has to do. The engineers don't like they're not pilots. They why they design it this way, blah, blah, blah. But when you go through a program like that, like you said, one, you're actually flying the plane in some cases, and two, you're right there with the pilot. You guys are learning the same thing side by side. So I think that's very important for people to hear.

And you have a little more empathy for the fact that like if the pilot's having a hard time like getting on condition, like I need them at this speed, at this altitude in order to collect this data I need. It makes me a lot more understanding when they can't get on condition. I'm like, okay, I see, like you're dealing with this and that and the other thing, and now like I'm not, I I understand. And they understand, they understand equally why I, because of the math and the academic background, they understand why exactly I need them at that test point. Um, so it's just, yeah, we better understand each other.

Yeah. What are you learning through that that year-long process?

I am learning how to I'm learning how to problem solve and how to like uh well, they always say like you're keeping yourself alive in like a very dangerous situation. Like you you learn how to like make really good decisions under pressure, I guess I would say. Um because and also how to be efficient with tests, because if you're in like an aircraft that has an hour's worth of fuel, you have to be very efficient. So you learn that. Um, you learn a lot about test integrity. Like you're gonna have program managers who are worried about cost and schedule, and um they aren't gonna like they always say like you have to be able to call somebody's baby ugly. Um, so you're telling, you're learning how to like be honest about what you saw, even if it's not the answer that somebody else wants. Uh so test integrity in that sense. And then yeah, like making good sound decisions in the face of like um like risky environments, I guess. I don't know if that's really the best way to put it, but um, yeah, I'm at a loss for like how exactly to say it.

No, it it makes sense. And um, you know, being efficient with the test too, you you mentioned that you know you don't want to really have the cost consideration, but if you go to private sector, like that, there's always the cost consideration. So I think it's important that that piece is is talked about too. Because nobody wants to go up. Uh some of those aircraft are, you know, I'm sure thousands and thousands of dollars an hour to operate.

Uh-huh.

And you go up and you can't get the test done that you want to get done, have to come back and do it again another day. That's hurts the bottom line.

Well, and you're always, you're almost always at flight test at the end of a pro like closer to the end of like the whole project lifecycle again. You're you're always behind uh schedule and over budget. So you're getting that pressure of like doing more with less, or somebody wanting to cut out flight test altogether, and you have to be able to explain why it's so important. Yeah. Because you have to verify the system ultimately in the air. There's only so much that models can do, and also flight test validates your models, also.

Sure. Yeah, I mean, you we see it with like the uh modern airliners now, the delays in some of these programs. Uh 777X has been in development. You know, it's like 10 years of developing what is effectively a new generation of an aircraft that already existed. And I think I just saw their going into like their fourth stage of flight testing or something, but yeah, um, it's just crazy. I would I I went to the Boeing factory in 2017, I think, and they were building um 001 and 002 of the 777X. And it's I got to see them on the factory floor, and it's like we're still not still not certified.

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy how long it can take to develop and uh get into service a brand new aircraft like that. Yeah.

So you talked about what you're learning in test pilot school. What what types of flying were you doing? Because I saw a variety of different aircraft that you were in. T2 Buckeye was a cool one that that I saw. Um so uh the different types of aircraft you're flying and what you're what you're doing on those flights.

Uh well, you know, like the a lot of the um the general aviation aircraft we had, we would use for like systems testing. Like we had a course on GPS and uh um EOIR, like electro-optical, infrared cameras, um uh just a bunch of different classes. And then we had the performance and flying qualities, and usually we would do, in general, more jets for that type of coursework, um, because you're doing like uh jet cruise performance, climb performance, turn performance. Um, and then of course we got a capstone project at the end of it all, and that's when I got to fly the T2 Buckeye, um, which was really cool because my father-in-law got to fly that in naval pilot training back in the day. So it felt like really cool that I got to like randomly got put on that. Um but but yeah, so it just depends what what you're learning how to do. But uh like you would use a jet. We did jets for spin training, like spin. It's like you're trying to determine how susceptible an aircraft is to spinning. Okay. Uh based on its characteristics once it starts to spin. But sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, cool.

Did that feel like a big step out of your comfort zone coming from the engineering side to be in the air doing that kind of I mean, you had flown on the Gulf Streams at NASA, but now you're intentionally putting aircraft in some cases out of control.

Yeah, it felt it was I feel like the most nerve-wracking, like the most anticipated, but also most nerve-wracking was flying in a jet, like a two-seat jet for the first time. Um because I had wanted to do that for so long. And there were opportunities for me to fly the T38 at NASA, but I ultimately, it's a long story, but I ultimately did not ever do that. And so the school, eventually I got to fly a T38 at um test pilot school. Uh, so it felt like it was a long time coming, but it was also like nerve-wracking because it's like all this new experience all at once. So like you're wearing a G-suit, you have a uh helmet and a mask, and like and it's tiny and it's like this is all so new. And then um, you know, if the pilot knows it's your first time, they're probably gonna try to make you sick. So you're like trying not to barf and like it was just it was it was fun, but it I I remember just like lining up to take off and like in my mind being like, holy cow, I could pinch myself. This is so surreal that this is my life right now. I've wanted this for so long, and I can't believe this is actually happening, especially as a civilian being able to do this. Like, I always say when people ask me, what's the coolest, like most surreal thing you've gotten to do? It's like literally, somebody let me fly a jet, a military jet with uh no pilot's license as a civilian. Like where does that happen? But that's pretty cool.

Yeah. So was it like a big kick in the pants to get inside like a T38 that's got afterburners and just go up on your rocket ship? Yeah.

You know, even that felt so it felt so fast. I don't know. If you saw me from the side like from outside the aircraft, you'd probably be like, that's not that fast, but it felt really cool.

What was the most interesting flight you went on or project you did during that training?

I think the capstone project, um I mean flying a T2 Buckeye was pretty cool. And then also just the it was rewarding because uh I worked with another test pilot, a test pilot student. Him and I were on a team. Um, he was from the UK, which was pretty cool. And um we got to plan out the entire test, go and execute it without any help, really, and I'm and then um, you know, report on it, and it's like this huge culmination of everything we've learned. So that just felt obviously very rewarding to get to like put everything I had learned into one report and uh do ultimately what I would do in industry as a flight test engineer.

Once you get into industry in that field, are those test parameters, are you setting those? Are engineers ahead of you in the design process setting those? Like if Boeing's they got the 777X and the one the engineers that designed it originally and they're passing it off to the test flight engineers, are they saying we need to see this, this, and this?

Um, I think it ultimately depends on the company. Um but generally you would have like a whole team that kind of comes together. You'd have the discipline engineers, the flight test team, like flight test engineers, uh all kind of collaborating to determine what exactly um what data products you're gonna need to validate the system. It's not just like one person, but yeah, you would work together to come up with like a test matrix of everything you need to get, and then also like the whole test plan. Um, but yeah.

Would you say it's common to go through a a flight test and f find something that was unexpected?

I think that's probably pretty common. I mean, it's gonna be pretty hard to like have a hundred percent like accurate models and then um just there's always gonna be something I think that's unforeseen that you didn't expect. Um, but like I I think it's pretty common in this industry to have uh at the end of it all have a debrief, just like you would from a flight, have a debrief and like kind of talk through the lessons learned as well.

Sure. So cool. Um what was the biggest challenge you faced in test pilot school?

Well, uh there were a couple women, but I was the only girl in all in my entire graduated class. That was interesting. I think I don't necessarily feel like I was treated differently by any of my classmates because I was a woman. Um, so it wasn't necessarily like a huge challenge. It was just very interesting. And then uh I think just um because it was such a diverse, um, like culturally diverse class, I think it was really interesting to have like people from all over the world, different cultures, different uh experiences, some Military, some civilian. I just think that was really unique, interesting, but also at times challenging. You're dealing with a lot of different personalities and cultural expectations. So just a cool, interesting experience from that perspective.

Yeah, the cultural piece is interesting to me because I know a lot of guys that fly internationally and they talk about just how different, um, even on the commercial side, you know, international pilots and air traffic controllers and stuff. Uh I mean, uh aviation's supposed to be standardized across the world, right? But the reality is it's not. And in the US, I think it's, if anything, a little more lax than it is in other places. And um, you know, the less standard phraseology and people can get away with a little more just because we're, you know, historically cowboys. It's yeah, that's funny.

Yeah, it's funny because when I started like training uh like to get my pilot's certificate, uh, it's funny because my instructor was like looking at me really weird because I kept saying copy instead of uh like Roger. And I did not realize that there are literally books with like actually accepted terms, and like copy is not one of them, but it's a very common term for engineers to use is to say copy.

Sure.

So just interesting little things, but not that it's a big deal, but yeah, I get what you're saying.

Yeah, US pilots get a lot of crap for not ever saying Mayday if there's an emergency. Everybody always see like the you know, they post the videos online of there's some emergency and they have the ATC recording, and they're like, why don't you just say Mayday? Like, I'm declaring an emergency. Just say Mayday.

That literally happened um when I was new in test pilot school. We went on a night flight and ended up hitting really bad low-level wind shear and turbulence. And we decided we needed to go back uh to return to base. And I was sitting next to a German and in front were two Australians flying the plane, and uh we had agreed like knock it off is a term you use in flight test to like we're we need to stop, we're in something's unsafe. Uh, and they never said knock it off. They said we're gonna cut it away. And to me, I had hung out with enough Australians that I could understand completely. The German guy next to me did not understand what was going on, he just kept proceeding with the test. And it was a pretty scary situation. We were not doing it, it was not good. But anyway, we get on the ground and he just kept going, I don't understand, but you never said knock it off. Like, I'm like, yeah, because cut it away means like cut it away.

Like we're going with precision of language.

Yeah, I'm glad we all make it up, made it out okay so we could laugh about it now, but like it was kind of a a good example of like you can't just use whatever words you want because people won't understand.

Sure. That's funny. Yeah. I think STEM as a term has gained a lot of popularity lately, and I think I hope at least that the fields within it are gaining popularity too. Uh, I definitely see it more on the technology side, but uh engineering is one that I don't have numbers on it. I I don't know if that's increasing or decreasing, but how do we encourage younger generations to get into these STEM professions?

I think again, that's part of why I so badly wanted to share like what I do at work, because we s you might imagine through from a movie or like from wherever you see, uh whenever wherever you see it, you might think an engineer is somebody who sits at a desk and crunches numbers all day. And I don't think that's particularly appealing to maybe many people.

Uh or yeah, the one who designed a little screwing cat.

Exactly. So I think it's cool to like show people how hands-on and cool and awesome uh your career can be as an engineer. But um I think that one major block blocker is that uh engineering and other STEM fields are seen as so challenging because the academic process of getting to the end goal of a job is so uh it is really scary and challenging, and I think it might scare a lot of people away. And so I wish there was a way to like make it, I don't know, more fun. Like I felt like my academic process of getting through undergrad was so challenging, and I almost felt like it was more challenging than it necessarily needed to be. I think there is, you do need to learn how to solve problems and it needs to be rigorous in some ways, but I felt like it was so like the environment was so intimidating that it didn't need to be that way. And so I think if we show people like the hard work is worth it by showing them these career fields and like the day-to-day, I think that that could be really helpful.

Yeah. You you did mechanical and aeronautical engineering, right?

Yeah, I did uh well, my undergrad was mechanical with an aerospace focus, and then my master's was in aerospace engineering.

Okay. Was there one that was more challenging than the other? I mean, obviously, master's program, I would imagine just being a master's program is challenging enough, but it was challenging. Yeah.

I think the master's was challenging in its own way. I think I went to Georgia Tech and it's known for being rigorous, and uh it was challenging. I learned how to um really like learn independently in a way. I think that's part of what a master's degree program isn't designed to do. But I honestly thought the most challenging thing about undergrad was the professors who had a very uh opinionated view of what an engineer looked like and needed to act like. And uh, like I remember being told, um, yeah, like I struggled at, I think it was like mechanics and materials or some course like that. And I remember being told, like, yeah, something's not clicking up here. You should just change your major to something else, something easier. And I'm like, if I had listened to that, I would never have ended up where I am today. And I I think that I don't think those like um pieces of feedback are useful. Yeah, I don't know why anyone would like use that to like as a piece of advice for someone, but uh also as if you're the only person that's ever struggled through any type of college curriculum.

That's insane.

And if any parent has ever taught their kids something, it's that you don't give up when something is hard. So I don't understand why that was like even a like a thought, but um I forgot what the question was. I got a lot of my soapboxes.

No, the if either mechanical or uh air engineering were more difficult.

Oh, I guess I was just trying to say that I think the environment is what made it hard. Um, and being one of so few women. Um but I think I mean I think mechanical engineering is like a good basis because you can use it to go into any career field within engineering. Like it's so broad, I think it's really useful. Um, I don't know if I'd ever say anything one is harder than the other or anything. I think there are just particular subjects that every person is gonna find harder than others. So yeah.

Yeah. I remember I I have a buddy, he's uh Air Force pilot now. He flies uh HH 60s. But um he did airspace engineering when we were at uh University of Florida together, and he was talking about some of the core like fluid dynamics and all this other stuff where I'm just like, you know, that hurts my brain, but I thought dynamics was really hard, like how things move.

I don't know. I don't even honestly remember what that class was about. It was so hard. It was like a weed out course, it was five credits, and I was like, this is so unfair. I think that professor probably told me to change my major too. He told me I didn't understand basic math, is what he told me, and I cried in his office and he did not like that.

Goodness. Well, maybe they're just trying to make sure you're tough enough to make it, but I think there's better ways to go about it. We I talked about a little bit how you know with computer modeling and all the tools that we have now, uh, the test pilot side of things obviously is still very important. But do you think we ever get to a point where the computer modeling is so good that test pilots as we know them now aren't really necessary or as necessary? Or do you think there's always just real-world uncertainties that we'll never be able to know?

I really wanted to immediately say no. I don't think we'll ever get there. But I think there are certain things like a computer can much more easily put a very clean input into an aircraft than a human can. It's just how it works. Like a computer can do it much. Like if you're gonna do a step input on an airplane, um, I think a computer can do that better than a human. Um, however, I think that there are certain like things like with aerodynamics, for instance, that we just like don't know how to model. Like that's um, I think it's just there's no way around it. And I think that in the in the end, you're always gonna have to validate the system in the flight environment. I think that that will always be true. And I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

If somebody wanted to follow in your path to get, you know, to NASA or to test pilot school, do you think there's it an easier route, a harder route, or it's just, you know, put in all the applications you can, make the connections that you can make and go that way?

I don't know that people realize how important uh little things are in order to set yourself apart. Like I did not I don't know where I got the idea that I should Google uh points of contact at every NASA center and email them my resume. I don't know where I got that crazy idea, but I think my outcome would have been a lot different if I had just gone onto the NASA website and uh sent my resume into the application process and been in there with thousands of other people. I think people underestimate how how big of an impact that can have. Like it makes you it shows that you have the initiative and the passion to like reach out. I don't think people do that as often as maybe they should. So um I think that I would highly recommend that. Like if you can talk to a human being and convey your passion, I think that can get you pretty far.

Yeah. Uh you've mentioned a couple times how sometimes you feel like you're the only woman in the room in some of these career fields.

Yeah.

Uh if there's other young women that are wanting to chase down that pathway too, are there organizations or groups that you recommend that they join that might make them feel a little less alone?

Yeah. Um, I think there are lots of great organizations. There's women in aviation, Society of Women Engineers, there's a group called the, I think it's called the 99s. They're female pilots. Any organization like that, I think, really will help build a sense of community for um any young woman out there. And um I think also like it's important to also surround yourself with people who don't look like you. Like I had plenty of um men in my life who were advocates, advocates for me and allies, and uh really spoke up for me in situations where maybe my voice wasn't heard or I wasn't in the room and they sp and they advocated for me. So I think that can be equally important too.

Yeah. Strength through diversity. I like it.

That's right. Yeah. We build the best teams when we uh have diverse teams and different thoughts and uh experiences and stuff like that.

So yeah. Is there one habit or mindset that that you think made the biggest difference in your journey?

Um I think that um one of the things I'm most proud of about myself is that I have really a really strong sense of discipline.

Um and I always relate that to like the fact that I started running marathons. I think that the thing I like most about running marathons is the training and the discipline that training for a marathon requires. And I think that there's I mean, that carries through for like human space flight. You have to have discipline in following your flight rules that you have in place and all the safety precautions in order to keep people safe. Uh, it carries through with flight test and the test discipline that we talk about in order to again keep you and your crew members safe. And um, and it also is true in um like having discipline in studying as a student or like chasing your career goals. I think that's discipline in your life can be really important and and a useful tool.

Yeah.

And then finally, where can people find you?

Um, I have a website that is uh theplaincate.com and then all my social media handles, Instagram is where I mostly post, but it's all the plain Kate.

Great. Kate, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.

It was fun.

Yeah, hey, thanks for listening. If you want to hear more from Kate, the link to her stuff is down below. If you want to hear more from aviation professionals just like Kate, you can subscribe to the AirPod on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify. I will see you right back here on the AirPod.